Counting the Omer

[Jody]

Shalom, Has anyone else started counting? Do you count at all? In Wayyiqra (Leviticus) 23 We are instructed in vs 5: In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month, between the evenings, is the Pesach to YHVH. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the Festival of Unleavened bread to YHVH-seven days you eat unleavened bread. On the first day you have a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work. (sabbath) And you shall bring an offering made by fire to YHVH for seven days. On the seventh day is a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work. (sabbath)
9: And YHVH spoke to Mosheh, saying, "Speak to the children of Yisra'el, and you shall say to them, "When you come into the land which I give you, and shall reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest to the priest. And he shall wave the sheaf before YHVH, for your acceptance. On the morrow after the Sabbath the priest waves it.
15: And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; you shall count for yourselves: seven Sabbaths complete.
(then) 16: Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you shall count fifty days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to YHVH.

[Celia]

I want to count every year and end up being so confused as to when to start and stop, that, so far we have not counted at all! I really want to this year, but I am still unclear! IF we celebrated Passover last Saturday night, then would we start counting this Sunday coming up? Do I have this wrong and should have already started counting????

I really want to count this year. It reminds me of back when we used to do Advent. I was thinking of trying to construct an Omer Calendar with little doors or possibly just hand a ribbon, attach 50 pieces of candy and open one every night...that seems like a lot of candy though! We do have wheat kernals around here that we could munch on, but that doesn't sound as fun as the candy. (:

And IF one celebrated Passover this past Saturday night, would the second day of Passover rest be this coming up Saturday as well, or do I have that wrong too?

Celia

[Jody]

Celia, This is why it is so difficult to try and mix YHVH's calendar with the gregorian calendar now in use in this country. I am sure that if you are trying to understand and apply what you know, YHVH will give you light and knowledge. Every year my dh and I learn more. So don't think you are "doing it wrong". Just do it. The best you know and you will grow in understanding. IF you considered saturday night Pesach, then if I understand what you are doing, sun would be 1st day of Unleavened? If so, that is the day Scripture tells us to keep a set-apart gathering, and to do "no servile work". (sabbath rest) IF that is how you understand it, then would not mon be the wave sheaf? Maybe I don't understand how you are doing this.....correct me if I mis-understood.

[Mary]

If you go by the 1st day of Unleavened Bread being the Sabbath you count from, it would be Monday. However, that is not the only view. From the book " A Family Guide to the Biblical Holidays", Messianic and Sadducean method uses the weekly sabbath, while the Rabbinic method uses the Holy Day sabbath to count. In Leviticus, what strikes me is when there is a specific day to do something, it is given. If you count from Nisan 16, Shavuot will always fall on Sivan 6, yet we are told to count. I think the reason is that the weekly sabbath falls on different days each year during Passover week so we must count the 50 days. Everyone has to seek wisdom to determine which day is correct. What is important is to be obedient to worship and celebrate the feast. It is important to remember grace throughout the whole process. For now we see through a glass darkly and know "in part."

Mary

[Jody]

Mary, Thank you for your perspective. Personally, I do not agree with the theory of the dates always being the same.... Once again we are mixing apples with oranges in trying to mix YHVH's calendar with a sun worship/solar based calendar. This is where many misunderstandings and differences in interpretation arise. It is also the basis for the need for Rabbinic postponements, and adjustments to YHVH's calendar. Let it suffice to say, there are different interpretations out there, and not everyone is on the same page. There are also different understandings of the actual counting. You will note in Scripture it says to count two separate counts. First we are to count 7 Sabbaths complete. (or completed) and from "the morrow after the seventh Sabbath" we are to count 50 days. Two different ways of keeping time. By weeks, and then by days. There is a very long teaching on this understanding which was on the Biblical Holidays discussion forum. And there are a growing number of believers who understand and adhere to this interpretation. But once again, every year you keep the feasts to the best of your knowledge and understanding, and you (or whoever, not pointing a finger at anyone) will learn a little more, be given a little more light and understanding. Shalom.

[Mary]

Thanks for your reply, Jody. I looked up the scripture in Leviticus and yes, I agree with you, it is two separate counts. It is always a joy to see something afresh. Why isn't it on the Rabbinical calendar that way? It is so clear after you pointed it out. Anyway, I still will go with counting from the weekly sabbath since it says to count seven sabbaths and to me, every 7th day after a special sabbath is not a sabbath. To me, that refers to the weekly sabbath. I am always open for Hashem to reveal differently to me. However, I will count two blocks of 50 after reading it again. Thank you for pointing it out.

Shalom,
Mary

[Jody]

Shalom, I was just checking in to see if there was any activity here. I haven't seen any responses to anything for a couple of weeks now. How is everyone doing on the counting of the Omer? According to YHVH's strickly Scriptural calendar, we have (IMHO- dh & I) just completed the third shavuah. Or the third Sabbath complete. Looking forward to some others responces and counting, IF anyone is actually counting.

[Jody]

Anyone still counting? According to our count, we have just completed the 5th Sabbath. How is your count going??

[Jody]

Shalom, It would appear not many are counting at all. Or perhaps they do not wish to get into this discussion. To ask a question, Mary, why would one want to adhere to the manner in which the Sadduceans count? They do not ever recognize Y'rushalyim as the place that YHVH put his Name. They believe you go "up" to Mount Gerazim to worship. Even their Scriptures are altered with that being the 10th "commandment". (worshipping on Mount Gerazim) So why would someone choose to follow their lead? Just asking..... Also, there are two completely different counts being spoken of, with two distinctly different measurements of time. One being shavuah (weeks) and the other being days. Two different blocks of time, two different measurements. Lastly, since according to a growing number of Scripture scholars,who study and understand YHVH's Scripturally accurate calendar, the first day of Unleavened Bread/Pesach always is the weekly Sabbath. Thereby removing any need to make adjustments or postponements and there is never any confusion as to when the count begins.

[Mary]

I have really pondered how to answer this as I know this discussion became heated on the other board and I do not want to repeat it. The Sadduces and the Pharisees were part of the Sandhedrin which met in Jerusalem. A quick websearch showed the division between the two being strict interpretation of the Torah without oral law. The Sadduces were the stricter of the two. Yet, they didn't believe in a resurrection and were called on it by Yeshua. One source I found actually had the Sadduces as the precursors of the Karaites who teach the scripturally accurate calendar you seem to believe in. Does that mean that you keep to all of their teachings? Probably not. I do not know where your understanding of what they believed comes from and I do not want to debate it. It is really not the issue here. It implies that to take a certain position, one has to believe everything they teach. That is not true. Since none of these groups recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, we must go with what understanding we have and can glean from teachings that are out there, guided by the Spirit of G-d, recognizing that as Paul taught, "Now we see through a glass darkly." If we didn't, there would not be so many different interpretations. Take for instance, Passover and Unleavened Bread. You appear to count both as one day. I do not. Passover is on the 14th day of Nisan and Unleavened Bread on the 15th. If Pesach, the 14th is a sabbath, the 15th is clearly also a sabbath. Which one do you use to count as the "morrow after the sabbath?". What do you do when the month has 29, 30 days? Do you restart your count for sabbath on the first of the next month or just at the beginning of the year? Somewhere it seems to me that you will have leftover days and a week that is longer than seven days. Those are the issues that I grapple with. At the time of creation, G-d sanctified the 7th day. There was no mention of new moons, etc. at that time. The implication is that it is the 7th day forever. I know you see this differently and I am not going to argue the point. We will have to agree to disagree. I told you that I do see that the weeks count and the 50 days are two different counts. You will have to be satisfied with that for now. Maybe G-d will reveal differently to me later, however my focus right now is on holiness and living a Torah observant life. The calendar is not something that Hashem has convicted me with right now. If this is Hashem's heart for His people, he will bring it to the forefront of Hebrew roots teaching.

Shalom,
Mary

[Jody]

Shalom Mary, Thank you for your sincere and gracious response. I too do not intend to turn this into a heated debate. To simply answer a couple of your questions. The term Pesach is commonly used throughout Judaism to refer to many things. It is used to refer to the Pascal lamb, it is used to refer to the Seder, it is used to refer to the entire Holy-day week. So my use of it does not mean that I celebrate it as one day. In my understanding, we hold that the 14th day of the first month of YHVH's Scripturally accurate calendar, between the evenings, is Pesach. The term Passover is a very poor translation of the Hebrew word and gives a very inaccurate message of what is happening, but that is an entirely separate study and discussion. Since the Pesach needs to be slaughtered and cooked, and is to be eaten between the evenings, then yes, it does overlap and occur simultaneously with the first day of Unleavened bread, considering that the hebrew day begins with the darkness first. Since we are commanded to eat unleavened bread for 7 days, and since the Pesach meal is the first meal we are partaking of unleavened bread, this would obviously be the case.
We are also instructed in Torah to begin each "month" with the sighting of the new moon. So yes, our monthly cycle renews, according to YHVH's design, each month. And no, this is not the same calendar belief that the Karaites hold to. They too believe in the strict interpretation of the sighting of the new moon for the monthly cycles, but for them, that is as far as it goes. They also do not believe in the over-riding authority of the Rabbis to add to, take away from, or alter Torah. So, I can not see where the Sadduceans were their precursors, since they have different Scriptures. (altered). I do agree with much of what the Karaites believe however, but not all. I do not say you have to agree with everything any sect of judaism believes, but you should always consider the source. The old saying, "when you lie down with dogs you get fleas" would imply. If you associate what you believe with a specific group, then you are presenting that group as a reliable authority. Sorry if I misunderstood your presentation.
As far as Pesach/Unleavened bread being Sabbath. I know this is a very touchy subject for many. I will meerly say that if every month begins anew with the sighting of the new moon as we are instructed, then the fourteenth day of any given month is not a Sabbath. Enough said.

[Mary]

The old saying, "when you lie down with dogs you get fleas" would imply.

Well, where do I go with this? I never said I followed Sadducean teaching or beliefs. I simply said that I believed that Pesach is a movable holiday and I prefer to count from the weekly sabbath. My bad, you are right, the 15th of the month would be the sabbath according to your count.. So are you saying that the 15th of every month is a sabbath? If so, what do you do with the months that have more than 28 days as some of them do. I still go back to at the time of creation, G-d sanctified the 7th day. Your reckoning would result in weeks that can be as much as 9 days long. That is the problem I have with the reckoning of starting the count over every month because then, every seventh day is not a sanctified day. Like I said, not trying to start an argument. Let's remember that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. It is a gift to us every week to remember all that G-d has done for us, the most notable, the sacrifice of his son, Yeshua. While it is important to observe Torah, to break fellowship over the reckoning of the calendar is contrary to the law of love that Yeshua taught. I do not follow any sect of Judaism because they do not recognize Yeshua was the Messiah. I see the importance of studying Torah and have for many years but the Holy Spirit should ultimately be our guide in interpretation of G-d's word. I do read different interpretations but we need to rely on the ministry of the Spirit in matters like this. When this issue becomes important to my walk, the Holy Spirit will reveal that to me. NOONE has the ultimate truth on this, not even you, Jody. We truly do see through a glass darkly until Christ's return. You must allow other believers the grace to discover things for themselves. Your way may be true but let us not lose sight of the work of GRACE in a believer's life. G-d looks at the heart of the believer and his desire to follow his word, not how perfectly he follows the law. If we make perfect obedience to the law a point of salvation and not a matter of obedience out of love for his commandents, then we have fallen from grace as Paul said.

Galations 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law : ye are fallen from grace.

And before you think I believe that the book of Galations does away with the law, I don't. My husband and I just gave our best explanation of the work of the law in a believer's life that we could during a recent study of Galations at our church.We had to make our points in a room full of people who have been taught all of their Christian lives that the law was done away with. And several people understood what we were saying: that obedience to the law should come out of heart to obey the commandments of G-d because it blesses him, not to gain salvation.

I have found as I have studied the Hebrew roots of the faith that gentile believers who have discovered Torah are often more strict in their observance than the Jewish believers and seem to be much quicker to judge others who don't do as they do. This is something I think we need to guard against as we can become much like the Pharisees of Yeshua's day. Yeshua had harsh things to say to them because they had forgotten the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. Let us all be ready to share in love and to minister grace to all.

Shalom,

Mary

[Jody]

Shalom, Let me first say again, thank you Mary for your responce and activity. On another note, I will correct myself. (This is what I get for responding to threads while I am at work and being interupted frequently) I was referring to the Sadduceans and thinking Samaratins in referrence to having altered Scriptures. So please excuse my mis-speaking in that context.
As far as my comment about the fleas, it was meerly a illustration that whomever one uses as a referrence, or association, then you must consider all of their beliefs because you will be associated with them. Just as I referrenced that other than not reckognizing the Rabbinic authority to change/alter Scripture and to make postponements to YHVH's calendar and moedim; I do not necessarily subscribe to all that the Karaites believe. There understanding of the sighting of the moon as the beginning of the month, and the importance of the abib/aviv for the starting of the year, are accurate, IMHO.