More than Pork.

[Tracy]

I am interested to know what the Dietary Laws mean to others here? Does it just mean you don't eat pork and seafood? Or more?
My husband and I have felt convicted for about 4 years now to put away eating pork. We only eat it if it is put before us. It can be difficult trying to explain it if it comes up with others as there is Peter's vision in Acts 10 which leaves a lot of questions for others. There is also the lawlessness which fills the church today, which I generally find leaves people uncomfortable with absolutes.
I look forward to hearing input from others.
Blessings,
Tracy

[Stephanie]

Tracy - you have no idea how wonderful this is to see here today. We were just discussing this! I've been convicted about pork, seafood (which I didn't eat/like anyway), etc for a little while now. My family on the other hand... lol My husband grew up in a kosher home and yet has loved pork from an early age (to his unknowing family.) It has been something that wasn't up for discussion really, so I just went about my own on it. Lately it's come up in various studies that we've done, and it seems like my husband is questioning it also. We just started reading the Torah portion for the week on Friday evenings together as a family, and last night we started discussing dietary laws after reading Lev 11. We went down the Acts 10 road because of some study notes in one Bible, and honestly it isn't setting with me well. I'm not sure what it means. My husband and I both walked away feeling unsettled because though it does say that all are declared clean, it also doesn't seem to have anything to do with eating! I found more connection with the other events and the Jew/Gentile relationship issues than with food. Yet, it's fairly specific in mentioning animals. It just seemed to be out of sorts - but I know that isn't the case with the Word. :) We're wrestling with it. I grew up in a family that read and studied the Bible, but my parents didn't dissect or question what they were told compared to what they read in scripture (or at least they didn't show/teach me that.) So, this is new ground for me on so many levels. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

We're simply starting with what is declared clean for eating simply because that's the easiest/biggest place to start. I do also have issues with blood, etc, so I feel fairly certain that it will go beyond pork for us. Now, will we separate milk and meat to keep kosher like my in laws? Probably not, but we will avoid things like animal fat, blood in meat, etc. We're a work in progress still.

I totally agree with your statement about the lawlessness of today's church leaving people uncomfortable with absolutes. I also think that separating tradition from actual Biblical statement is difficult for a lot of people as well. Tradition runs deep.

Sorry to ramble! This is something that I'd love to chat with someone about. This is something that we've been reading on, agreed to meditate on, and then read/discuss more in detail, so it's close to my heart at the moment. (It seems that once one thing is resolved - like our commitment to keep Sabbath - another arises, like our questioning of dietary commands!)

[Tracy]

Just from a common sense point of view, pork truly is an unclean meat. It is like a vulture on 4 legs, it will eat anything. Here in Australia we see this alot as we have feral pigs, anything that is killed on the road will be gone by morning if there are pigs nearby. The pig is very similar to humans in that it only has one stomach, so food doesn't have the time to digest like a hoofed animal which have multiple stomachs. That means any toxins for eg, from dead flesh that the pig ingests, stays in it's flesh and the moment it is killed and eaten, it moves to the person ingesting it. I suppose some people think that pigs are vegetarian but that is far from the truth. Most of the seafood that is popular (which I have a weakness for, but rarely get to eat anyway) are ground dwelling or cleaners, taking in all the rubbish again. In alot of ways it just makes sense.
Now my husband would be able to explain Acts 10 better to you but from my understanding the revelation that Peter was given was really about preparing him for the visitors that arrived just moment later. As you would probably know a gentile was considered an unclean thing and would not be aloud into a Jews house. Peter then left to present the gospel to a gentile household. I don't believe Jesus' words in the gospels support the general belief that this revelation was about abolishing the dietary laws, that is really taking things out of context as well because then we are just looking at that one passage and ignoring the many things that are taking place around that passage. It also comes from a belief that the Old and New Testaments are separate revelations, that embracing the New mean doing away with the Old but a belief in Yeshua as Messiah is an understanding that there is no separation, the New is a fulfillment and continuation of the Old really forming a complete revelation of God's plan for mankind ~smile~.
I go out of my way to make sure meat is properly cooked, but I must admit I haven't put alot of thought into animal fat. I mustn't be ready for that yet. We have practised the Sabbath in the past and always come under alot of attack to put a stop to it. My husband feels it is more important for the boys to play football at the moment, as they can make some friends and he meets more people in our community. I look forward to practising a day of rest again soon. Although now we are in ministry the whole day of if Sunday is of equal worth as Sabbath as Saturday has become an issue. To me going to church wipes it out as a day of rest anyway, lol.
Yes it is ongoing revelation isn't it, step by small step. The blessing is the grace of God over all of this, it isn't just law anymore there is also love.
Blessings,
Tracy

[Jody]

Tracy & Stephanie, no where in Scripture does it say all animals are now declared clean to eat. The referrences in Acts are NOT talking about food. The church has taken those verses and taken them out of context, twisting them to make them appear to support the lawlessness. Our creator has not changed His Torah and His Instructions for us in regards to what is considered food. When you consider that our bodies are the temple of the Ruach, then what we put into our bodies is a sacrifice laid on the altar of temple. Hmmmm. Think about it. The blood issue is due to Scriputure telling us that the "life" is in the blood. We are not to eat anything with the "life" still in it. We would be taking that "life" into ourselves and it would become part of us.
My dh and I raise most all of our own meats. Lamb, goat, chicken, as well as venison which is hunted and grouse, wild turkey etc. We do our own kosher slaughter according to the standards given in Scripture. We eat our own eggs, and grow some of our own veggies. Yes we purchase milk, cheese etc. We also purchase beef from our friends who raise the animals organically and do our own slaughter and butcher. I know this is not possible for everyone, but there is not available a kosher butcher anywhere in our area. I am very careful in the grocery store to purchase dairy products, boxed goods etc with the kosher label. Mostly due to the fact that ensures me their are no unclean products added during the packaging. More and more products these days have the kosher symbol ensuring their purity. We do not separate dairy and meat. We personally do not interpret the Scriptures the same as the Rabbi's. We also do not practice much of the Rabbinic additions to Torah. That is our choice.
Since there is no Shul close enough to attend, we gather with other families of similar belief. We are a varied group with a common basis. I would love to hear from others. I know LisaW does their own animal production and I believe they do their own slaughter and butcher too.

[Stephanie]

I love how you worded this! This is very similar to what we're thinking now... buy kosher products, don't worry about separating milk/meat, etc. We are leaning more towards Torah living, but like you said without the Rabbinical interpretation. I'm thankful that I'm familiar with keeping kosher through my in-laws, though they are conservative Jews so they do separate milk/meat. I've been thinking on this for a while now, and I think it's just another transition we're going through in our walk. I wish that we could raise at least our own eggs, but living in a cookie cutter house I doubt that the neighbors would appreciate it. lol We're hoping to move where we have some land one day.

I've got to say that I'm so excited to read through scripture and actually feel like I was seeing it with new eyes (Acts 10 especially). It was a great week for me last week - in study I mean. I feel like in the last year my mind set is changing so much that I'm learning so much more. It's funny because this was mentioned in a sermon recently at our church, and my dh and I both walked away feeling like it spoke differently to us.

[Celia]

We do our best to avoid pork and shellfish. I no longer cook them in our house, but there have been a few occassions when we were guests and we felt like our dietary restrictions would offend or cause the person embarassment if we did not eat. I was curious how others handle this situation. A lot of people know we do not eat pork, but every now and then a situation will occur where someone doesn't know and food has already been prepared and we are unsure what to do.

Also if you are at a buffet/potluck type setting do you tell older children (say age 8 or more) what they can and can't eat or do you let them decide for themselves? Do you question the host as to what that unidentified meat is floating in the green beans? If it is just one item, easy enough, but if there are several I feel a little uncomfortable asking for a run down on each dish. I'm sure the root of my problem is being a people pleaser and I'm just gussying up as being polite.

We do not seperate milk and meat. I feel like G-d was being very specific when He told of the Laws and He could have said milk and meat, if that is what He meant us to do. Since He said a young goat in it's mother's milk, that is what I take it to mean. I read somewhere that cooking a goat in its mother's milk was some pagan religious or superstitious activity that He didn't want them participating in.

The problem I have is if we follow the laws then that would eliminate eating at most restaurants since most of them sell pork/shrimp, etc. and use the same dishes, cooking surfaces. Maybe we should be willing to give that up, but that would be a big change for us and one I'm not sure my husband and children would be ready to give up.

Celia

[Tracey Absolon]

Oh this urge to "please people", can just cripple us at times, don't I know. It is something that I fight all the time.
But... I never feel the need to cook "unclean meats" when we are having people over. I would in the end, be offending my husband and children far greater than any guest, who probably wouldn't even realise that I hadn't served up any pork or shell fish. After all, they aren't a mandatory dish at every meal, and shouldn't we be setting the standard in our own homes, and showing people that a great meal can be served without these things?
Potluck's are great because we are also not required to eat from every dish presented, so we just skip the dishes that we can't eat from. If everything else is questionable, then we just eat what I bring. Again most people don't even notice, or just pass it off as you having "fussy" eaters.
The really odd thing about this issue is, that if I were to tell people that I'm a vegetarian, or have food allergies, no one would question my food decisions, and most would go out of their way to make sure that there was food there that I could eat. Now if I say that I "choose" to follow the food laws, for one reason or another, most people immediately take offence and just can't resist presenting an "offending" meal next time they see you. My mother just can't resist trying to hide bacon in most dishes that she serves, just so she can show us that pork won't kill us. She is just not trying to understand at all.
When it come to eating out, that can be a tricky one. We usually try and pick a place that is not predominately a seafood house, etc, and again at times there maybe only one or two items on the menu that doesn't include pork etc. Avoiding them altogether is something that we are still tossing up, but we are very selective as to where we eat.
Just my thoughts.
Shalom,
Tracey

[Tracy]

1 Corinthians 10:27
KJV 27If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
NIV 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
Our family takes into account this scripture when eating out. In our own home we wouldn't serve up pork on any account. Although there have been times we have gotten fried rice and didn't pick out every bit of ham.
But if we go to someone's home we eat what they put before us out of love for them. Just as we would expect our children to eat what was set before them and not make a big deal if it was something they wouldn't usually like to eat.
When we go out to eat we do the best we can with what's on offer. We obey God out of love and reverence for Him but the New Testament continually drums into us that He wants us to have Love, love for Him and love towards others. We should do all things in love and I think it is more important to come away from someone else's house with them having a feeling that they are loved and accepted, not condemned because of all the "stands" we make. As my husband is a Pastor, this is very relevant, we may be visiting Christians or non-Christians, or Churchians, but we want to impact each of these families with the Love the Lord has for them. Great Blessings come with obedience to the Lord's ways but Lord brings each of us to His revelation in His time.
Blessings,
Tracy

[Stephanie]

This is exactly what we were discussing this weekend in regards to how we will handle it when out. I'm lucky in the sense that my in laws keep kosher, so the only other person we have to worry about fixing pork is my mother. She doesn't cook shellfish, so that isn't an issue. In fact, I actually just found out yesterday that she's interested in researching it a bit too! This is the first hint of acceptance that we've gotten from her in anything that we've decided to keep in our home. I think it was an article that my DH found that listed various NT verses that specifically started speaking to her. Either way, I'm thrilled that she's at least becoming more accepting of our beliefs even if she doesn't pick them up herself. Huge change!

[Tracey Absolon]

I am going to have to respectively disagree with you on this issue.

What you are suggesting is that from the beginning G-d declared that pork was unclean and an abomination to Him. Daniel refuses meat from the Kings table based on the food laws, and for thousands of years no one of "faith" touches pork. Then suddenly half way through the writtings of the new testament, your suggesting that G-d said, "Oh wait folks, forgot to tell you that it is ok to eat pork, just as long as it is offered to you by someone else!".

Really?? To my mind this would mean that any other abomination might be ok too, just as long as it is offered to us by someone else? How does the "relaxing" of this "abomination" make Him the same "yesterday, today, and forever"?. Do you really think that with one mouthfull that they suddenly wouldn't know that they were eating pork (the smell would have been enough), or how do you make a prawn not look like a prawn, that they could eat it without knowing what they were eating? They would then be eating in full conscience of what they were eating and not eating ignorantly as the 1Cor 10:27 passage that you quoted seems to suggest.

But... Verse 28 reads... But if someone says to you, "This meat was offered as a sacrifice," then don't eat it, out of consideration for the person who pointed it out and also for conscience's sake - 29: however, I don't mean your conscience but that of the other person...

This to me is obviously refering back to the Council's requirments in Acts, that the Gentiles not eat meats offered to idols or things strangled and we must remember that the gentiles of faith would now be eating only "clean" meats anyway.

One last thought. It I were going to have a meal with say a local chinese family, and I knew that there was a good possibility that the meat that was going to be served was dog, even if I didn't ask, what it was, but I knew by looking at it, and the smell of it, that it was something that I had never seen before, I don't think there is anyway I could eat that meal without gaging and being sick. Now if the only issue in going to their place for a meal was there may be a chance that the "clean" meat they were preparing may have been offered up to idols, then that is a completely different senario.

We are so acustomed to viewing pork and seafood as "food" that we don't really understand the revulsion that these things would have been looked upon by the Jewish community. Robins analogy of a rat or cockroach is very apt in my opinion.

Again just my thoughts,
Shalom
Tracey

[Stephanie]

Keep in mind that I'm new to studying this so this is just where we are at the moment and I don't have my notebook with specific verses in front of me at the time. (My memory is awful... I have to write things down. :) ) We read several verses that led us to this thought not to ok the eating of pork, but that it is ok to eat it if served if by refusing you would damage your witness to someone. I think it's a fine line because by simply explaining why we follow the dietary laws you would be a witness of sorts as well, but I can think of several situations that came to mind where I could see this thinking. Now, if we were just out and about and it was a matter of saying that I was served it so I could eat it... no. Quite honestly my stomach has turned with pork for a while even before I realized why! I'll have to get my hands on my notebook and ask my husband what verses he read as well because he came up with the same thing. Now, if you are talking covered dish social since that keeps popping up as an example, then no. I wouldn't eat it.

[Mary]

I think we always need to look at people in love. Your example of the Chinese family who might serve dog brought up a memory of some youth that I know who went on a mission trip to China several years ago. Yes, they were served dog in a Chinese home and yes, they ate it. Why? Didn't they think it was as the kids say "yuck"? They ate it because the family was deeply grateful that they had come to share the gospet and actually smuggled in Bibles to them. To the family that served it, it was a delicacy and to have refused it would have been very hurtful to them. As a matter of fact, the family was very poor and didn't eat anything themselves so that the kids would be able to feast. Let us not forget that the souls of people are way more important to Yeshua than what we eat. Should we follow the dietary laws? Yes, we should in our homes and when we are away as we can. Should we potentially cause offense to someone who hasn't received that revelation yet? I don't think so. That would be in violation of the law of love. Remember, our right standing with G-d is not based on our keeping the law but on Yeshua's sacrifice. We obey his commandments out of love for him.

Just a thought.

Shalom,

Mary

[Tracy]

Amen Mary. Well said.