circumsision?

[Yochanan Chayil]

i am doin a study on this. scripture says that if you are not then you are "cut off" from the inheritance.... the apostolic writings talk more about circumsision of the heart. where do we draw the line in this? do all men need this to enter the promise?
scripture ref. please

thank you and shalom

[Celia]

I am interested in this topic. Does anyone know if there is a general concensus in the Messianic world about circumcision? I had 2 boys before my interest in Hebrew Roots and they were not circumcised. I am expecting again (gender unknown) and now the topic is important again.

Do you get it done at the doctor? Can you get them to do it on the 8th day? Do Messianics have people that specialize in this like traditional Jewish people do? I would like for it to be a part of a religious cermony, done on the 8th day, and I also don't want it done hospital style.

Celia

[Yochanan Chayil]

hi celia,
i am jonathans wife. my name is lori. :) as a whole messianic people do believe that you need to circumcise your boys. we had caleb done at a family dr. on the 8th day. some drs. will say a prayer. im sure you can find one who is at least jewish. ours was jewish so he was great with doing it on the 8th day. i dont know if you have your babies in a hospital or not but hopefully they will work with you. what is hospital style circumcision? just out of curiosity:) ?

[Mary]

Often circumcisions are done prior to discharge from the hospital as early as 1-2 days old. As a nurse, I have assisted with several. We adopted our son and had him circumcised in the ER by my obstetrician. That was 16 years ago and as providence would have it, it worked out that we couldn't get it done for a week. (He was born on Dec. 23rd so we had to deal with the holidays.) He was circumcised on the 8th day. That was before we even considered Hebrew Roots. How gracious Adonai was to have us obey his word before we even understood the importance of the covenant. Our reasoning at the time was since my husband is circumcised we didn't want him to be "different" from his dad.

Shalom,

Mary in WY

[Celia]

I have no personal experience, but from what I have read, in the hospital, the baby is taken away from the parents for the procedure, strapped down, and a process is used that is much longer and therefore more painful than in the religious ceremony (a few seconds as compared with half and hour or so). I'm not sure if Doctors do it the same way in their offices or not.

I have been searching for an article that explains the differences in more detail, so I can understand it all myself.

[Jacque Dixon]

We had our first son circumcised on the 8th day at the Dr.s office. We did it because I know there is a purpose in what he tells us in hie WORD, and I found out that the body at 8 days produces vitamin K for blood coagulation, so they allowed us to put it off until then and did it for us then.
My husband and I were in the room. [my dh ended up leaving before he passed out] They strap the baby down to the board, give him a shot to numb it before they do the circ. Then they put the tool on him and it pulls the skin up and around and cuts it off.
The shot to numb it was horrible as it were.
I do not know about the religious ceremony.

[Yochanan Chayil]

hi celia,
lori again:)
they do strap them down when you take them to the dr just the same as im assuming they do in the hospital. the straps dont hurt the baby at all. they are just to keep the doc from slipping and cutting off vitally important parts. the shot hurts...not the circ itself. its really not as bad as everyone makes it sound. ive never heard that the process in the hospital takes any longer than going to a family dr. ours took about half an hour from start to finish. its really not that dramatic. if you dont want it done in the hospital then just tell them you dont. :)

[Dennis and Kellee]

Shalom Celia,

I too am in the same position, having 3 boys before the knowledge of the Torah lifestyle. But now I'm pregnant with boy #4. I was actually very much against circumcision and my Christian upbringing just substantiated my position. But after very diligent and careful study I too am now convinced beyond a doubt that all Torah observant families with males must be circumcised and any male children born to them must be circumcised on the eighth day.

HOWEVER, I have also come to understand that the tradition currently performed today in hospitals and according to Jewish (Oral) Torah are not the original or necessary methods for one to be circumcised. All that is "required" according to Scripture is a cutting off of the tip of the foreskin otherwise known as a "minimal circumcision". This is acheived rather quickly and with the least amount of pain inflicted as compaired to the typical circumcision as performed today. (Just for the record, I am still against the current method performed today, but fully support the abrahamic method.)

The value of the circumcision style as originally performed by Abraham, David, Moses and Joshua has many benifits to the man as well as his wife. The man retains more sensitivity during intimacy and therefore does not need to be as agressive with his wife to achieve the sensations as otherwise might be the case. If he does not have the same sensitivity due to having a full circumcision (wherein the glands are removed) more friction will be required to bring about those sensations, making it more uncomfortable for the wife. However if enough of the glands remain intact as is accomplished by performing a minimal circumcision then even if the wife is not fully prepared for her husband he will be able to contribute to the lubrication and the small excess of skin will minimize the friction making intimacy more frequently pleasurable for both husband and wife.

The reason this method is not accepted today among orthodox Jews is because it is not supported by oral Torah and because Jewish men wanted to join in the Greek games in which athlets performed in the nude in gymnasiums. The Jews would get ridiculed for being circumcised (ie. being Jews) and so the Jewish men thought to stretch the remaining skin over the end of their penis so they could blend in with the uncircumcised men making their circumcision as uncircumcision. So Jewish people sought to eliminate the ability to do this by cutting all of the foreskin off completely. Now there was no doubt as to whether the man was circumcised or not.

This was half of the focus of the debates Paul wrote about. The ones troubleing the new converts were saying that the new converts had to be circumcised according to Oral Torah and that this minimal circumcision (otherwise known as uncircumcision as the Pharisees referred to it) was not sufficient. The other half of the argument was that they had to be circumcised in order to receive salvation, which we know is not the case. Hence the retelling that Abraham was first circumcised in heart then he received the circumcision in the flesh as a result of his faith. (It shocked me to learn that Abraham's circ. in the flesh actually occured many years after he was called by YHWH.) Paul, as I understand it, got very upset with the Jews that were trying to push their oral tradition on the new converts by exclaiming in Galations 5:12 "I would they were even cut off which trouble you." He was upset that they were pushing this full circumcision issue and out of frustration implied they should just cut their whole thing off. It was an interesting take when I reread Galations with this understanding. This also makes sense when you consider Timothy and Titus. Timothy went to the Jews so he sought to have the circumcision performed according to the Jewish Oral Torah so the Jews would receive him. Where Titus on the otherhand was not compelled to receive that form of circumcision and was not compelled to do anymore than the required minimal (this was counted as uncircumcision according to the Scribes and Pharasees of that day).

If you think about it it is still the same today. Any man that converts to Othodox Judaism must undergo a circumcision ceremony in which blood is withdrawn from his penis whether he is circumcised or not and this ceremony must conform to their rules of how it must be done otherwise it is counted as uncircumcision.

Now, we homebirth our babies and I am due in April of '09. we are expecting a boy and have sought a method to circumcise our son as required. We do not go to doctors or hospitals (unless it's a matter of life or death), we have been turned away by Jewish synagogues and the only Messianic Mohel we were refered to declined assisting us because we were not as knowledgable about Torah as his family was (we were deeply hurt by this but figured YHWH has other plans for us). So with all of this my husband proudly announced one day that he, himself is going to perform it without assistance on our son in the eighth day. He decided if we can birth 4 children at home unassisted then we can certainly follow Yah's commandments without needing to rely on others to do so. We have done as much study as we could to learn the best way to do it and feel we are now prepared. We are a bit anxious of the unknown but we are fully trusting in YHWH for his guidance in this matter. We too are opposed to hospital style circ. Now the only thing remains to be figured out is the best method for our 9yr, 5yr and 20 month old to be in covenant too (we may resort to a professional competent in minimal circumcision if we can locate one for our older boys). I will try and remember to post our results when the time comes.
Please, to those of you who feel the need, keep us in prayer.
Shalom!

[Loving]

I am a little late catching up with this thread, so please excuse this slow reply.

I know life can be extra full this close to baby due, but if you have time ... I was wondering where you learned this information about minimal circumcision.

Blessings as you rejoice in YHWH's gift.

[Jacque Dixon]

I just read about circumcision and the covenant with Abraham yesterday. I was wondering the same thing. It is a covenant, and I have not yet gotten to study it, but am looking forward to doing it in the Old and New Testaments to see.

[Jody]

Shalom, The emphasis in Torah is equally circumcision of the heart. I don't understand why people think that is a B'rit Chadasha concept. Yes, circumcision of the flesh is important and if a man (any age) is studying Torah and wants to please YHVH in all that he does (with all his heart, strength, and resources/ heart, mind and strength= dependant upon your interpretation) as is recited in the Shema, then he will choose to be circumcised in his flesh.

[Sombra]

Seems to me, the commandment is for parents to circumcise their sons on the 8th day.. not seek a medical person or a Mohel.. And I agree - ANY age.. , but I can't force it on my sons whom I failed to obey God with..they have to choose it for themselves now.

[Jody]

Shalom, I thought this was pertinant to the timing:

Shemoth 12:43 "And YHVH said to Mosheh and Aharon, "This is the law of the Pesach: No son of a stranger is to eat of it; but any servant a man has bought for silver, when you have circumcised him, then let him eat of it. A sojourner and a hired servant does not eat of it. It is eaten in one house, you are not to take any of the flesh outside the house, nor are you to break any bone of it. All the congregation of Yisra'el are to perform it. And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Pesach to YHVH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it. There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you."